Over the last couple of days various blogs I read have been commenting on the issue of violence against women. Here are David Moles and Kameron Hurley.
While I agree with Kameron that we women need to take responsibility for our own safety, and can’t expect someone else to “save” us from violent men, I’d be pretty damned annoyed if men continued to maintain that it wasn’t their problem. Thankfully, not all of them do.
My friend Christine Burns has made a couple of posts about the White Ribbon Campaign, an organization run by men and dedicated to opposing violence against women. There’s a brief video statement by the organization’s UK Director, Chris Green, here, and a longer audio interview with him here. More information is available on the White Ribbon UK web site.
The White Ribbon Campaign was founded in Canada and the Canadian web site is here. There are also organizations in several other countries, for example Australia and Finland. As far as I can see, there is not specific White Ribbon affiliate in the USA, though several similar organizations exists.
So come on boys, what are you waiting for? Take responsibility.
Interesting. I’m glad to hear such an organization exists.
I’ve blogged about domestic violence. I can kind of understand why some people think that women in violent relationships who don’t leave “deserve” it—although that is a dumb, stupid, ignorant stance—but I could never understand why the same attitude towards rape exists.
I guess it’s easier on the conscience to dump the victim in any way possible.
I really applaud this organization.
That really is very Worthy in a Middle Class Ever So PC sort of way … whatever the color of the ribbon and whom so ever leads this worthily academic cause – whether the leader be male, female, or at any point in between those conditions.
You DO know how to break a forward strangle hold .. principle way that violent men KILL women .. and counter attack don’t you? If not why not?
Many years ago my Mother stormed into her Kitchen, knocked my feet from the table .. not the best position in which to read books but there you are .. and stated that I would Teach her Friend How to Fight!
I mentioned the 10 week basic training in un-armed combat and was told that said friends husband had taken to seizing her by the throat and shaking her.
That did somewhat change things.
And so I spent the evening teaching Mums – tall and well built – friend a simple rising break-hold to forward strangle and counter by striking with cupped hands over the attackers ears – plus a couple of follow ups if that didn’t quite work – combined with forceful instructions in the necessity of establishing a refuge with nearest – to attack – friends … take the kids and RUN !!! Repeat! Again and Again until it sticks in the victims mind and body like a reflex.
It did work, the assailant was semi deafened and Hurt quite badly by the follow through. My Mum was Triumphant .. not very P.C. to rejoice in violence but then she was born in the slums of Sunderland and this event was back in the late 1960s when the Police still spoke of it not being worth the effort to pursue ‘Domestics ‘ on the grounds that these women would always withdraw th complaint. Long ago and far away but the echos do remain even here in the ever so civilized first world.
My Mums friend did eventually divorce her husband .. and he married a woman who suited him better.
Did I mention that my Mums friend was Jewish and married to a Doctor ? The cause of the violence was not Standard Working-class Drunken frustration but rather religious differences … he was becoming rather more orthodox and she rather less so as the years went by. He was quite a Nice Chap Really.
” So come on boys, what are you waiting for? ”
Well, Really ! How Condescending.
How many women have you taught how to fight?
All the academic courses in the world aren’t going to help when an attackers hands close about your throat.
You do know how to break a forward strangle hold and then counter attack don’t you?
Not that I wish to seem condescending of course.
Arnold:
You obviously didn’t bother to read my post very well, because I started by pointing at various other people, including Kameron Hurley whose post is all about teaching women how to fight.
Of course, not bothering to read what a woman says and then yelling at her for not saying what she actually said is entirely typical male behavior. So is assuming that stopping violence against women is solely the responsibility of women. And so is sneering at possible non-violent solutions.
You are not a solution. You are part of the problem.
Arnold,
I have these observations to make about being in a domestically violent situation.
a) Trying to get time to do anything by yourself, much less learning how to fight, will raise the suspicions of your abuser. That tends to turn into violent actions.
b) People often let slip secrets to your abuser. That tends to turn into violent actions.
c) Learning to fight against someone using a gun and a knife is usually going to take years. Your abuser is likely to find out and kill you before you can get that far.
d) God help you if you have children that your spouse can use as shields or as blackmail material.
e) By the time the violence starts in such a relationship, your abuser has more or less complete control over your relations with others, so there won’t be anyone who wants to teach you how to defend yourself.
People really don’t want to get involved in helping victims. Organizations like these are helpful because they are trying to get rid of that stigma. It’s not about “P.C.”
Cheryl, I’m sorry to comment rather much about this, and I’m kind of veering off topic. It’s definitely a hot button issue to me. I’ll bow out now because this sort of stuff is also a berserk button for me at times, and that would be a bit ugly. 🙂
Arachne Jericho:
No worries. It is important to me as well. I wouldn’t have posted about it otherwise.
I wouldn’t waste your time on Arnold, however. He’s now resorted to sending me private email. The worlds “bully” and “coward” come to mind. If a woman dares say anything to contradict him she must be dealt with.
women learning self-defense moves isn’t enough… so she learns to break his choke hold, then he comes after her the next time with a baseball bat, or a knife, or a gun.
It takes a shift to change our cultures to be UNACCEPTING of violence towards our loved ones.
I am by no means sure that I understand the protocol of posting herein properly. Indeed I’m not a correspondent in any blog forum – save for a couple of technically related forums that are attached to my pre-retirement profession, and which don’t work in the same way that this one appears to – and thus I replied to what I had supposed to be an e mail directly addressed to me from Cheryl with a prompt reply from me to that e mail … thus …
” Cherl,
I did read your post .. though I will admit that I didn’t concentrate upon the referenced links as throughly as perhaps I should.
I wasn’t ‘shouting’ and indeed thought that my tone was quite temperate given your exhortation .. ” So come on boys, what are you waiting for? Take responsibility. ”
I have, and I have done so since I was a child. Moreover I am not alone in this nor even particularly unusual among my fellow men.
You might care to reflect upon your own remark that my own response ” is entirely typical male behavior ” I don’t believe that there is any such thing as ‘ entirely typical male behavior ‘ any more than there is entirely typical female behavior. I do not believe that stopping violence against women is solely the responsibility of women and I don’t recall saying that it was nor even implying this. I do believe that whilst the responsibility for stopping violence against women by men doesn’t lie solely with women it is at it’s most effective when it managed by women for women with a strong emphasis on the practical rather than the academic.In that incident of Long Ago it was my Mother who produced the solution to a deadly threat and that solution just happened to be me. I didn’t save that womans life … my Mother did.
Oddly enough I do consider that in this area You are not a solution. You are part of the problem.
Arnold. ”
I hadn’t thought that there was anything particularly offensive therein but you can be the judge of that ..just as you can judge my follow up e mail …
” Cheryl,
Er ..No ..you sent me an e-mail and I responded to that e mail as I now do to this e mail .
I had supposed that you preferred this for some reason. As far as I’m concerned you may quote my e mail in reasons to your e mail as much as you wish.
Where you get ” He’s now resorted to sending me private email. “bully” and “coward” come to mind ” I can’t imagine but I see no point in childish name calling. ”
On Aranchne Jerchio s carefully considered post I’m at an .. impasse ?
I do understand the limitations of defensive systems. Upon Guns and knives : yes training can take years and be of limited effect … I once had to deal with the after shock of a murder in which a tragically warped man misunderstood his relationship with a much younger woman and put a bullet through the back of her head after-wards shooting himself dead with the same weapon.
Never the less I do swing toward the view that practical self defense is much more useful than any Broad Based Campaign bent on appealing to Men to Change .. that’s just preaching to the converted and that ribbon campaign does seem, to me, to be very evangelically preachy .. and wish that, say, the the principles expounded in Kaleghl Quinns TV series and Book ” Stand Your Ground ” had developed a bit further than a short lived TV series and a spin off book way back in the 1980s.
It is odd that what remains a once pretty good memory – diced by illness and Drugs, Err by Prescribed Medications – does never the less pluck odd bits of information from out of the ether even before I pluck the books from their shelf.
Occasionally I do wonder what happened to ” North East Womens self – defense instructors ” .. the Women Instructors Course … that is tucked inside my copy of ” Stand Your Ground ”
A couple of Bouts of Clinical Depression limited my interest in this area, as they did my active interest in fanndom, but not to the extent that I don’t prefer the practical to the broadly theoretical.
Well meaning non violent campaigns may well change society one of these days … though I can’t bring myself to be so optimistic as to believe that they will .. but that doesn’t help someone who feels fingers closing about her, or his, throat … and , yes, as a child, I do know exactly what that felt like.
It takes time to engineer .. ” a shift to change our cultures to be UNACCEPTING of violence towards our loved ones ” and in the mean time people die.
I hope that this does clear up any misunderstandings that I might have introduced to this forum through my doubtless hasty and ill-considered response.
With which apology I do think it best that I remove myself from this debate lest I cause more damage than I intend.
Best Wishes,
Arnold.
Arnold:
You got email from the web site because you ticked the box that says “Notify me of follow-up comments via e-mail”.
Refusing to engage in public debate and instead harassing the blogger by private email is a common tactic of bullies on the Internet. If that wasn’t your intention, my apologies, but I have occasionally been on the receiving end of of fairly nasty treatment in the past and tend to assume the worst, especially when dealing with men I don’t know who are advocating the use of violence (even if it is for good reasons).
Cheryl,
Ah, right, I see … serves me right for just ticking the box without engaging the brain as it were.
I do apologize for having up-set you without need. I’m not afraid to upset people when I believe that I’m justified in so doing but I do hate it when I do it by accident.
I make no apology whatsoever for advocating the use of violence where such violence is both necessary and desirable to save life or prevent injury to the innocent.
Oddly enough I’ve very very seldom had to employ violence in situations of hazard but I have found through long practice that knowing that you can do it is more than ordinarily useful.
Arnold.
Arnold:
I’m glad we’ve got that sorted out. I agree with you that violence is sometimes necessary, and also that having the confidence to stand up to physical threats is an excellent deterrent to such threats. But equally I won’t ignore any attempts to produce non-violent solutions. Such things may be long term, but social attitudes can and do change.
The one time in my adult life (which was in August of 2009) where I was grabbed and mildly injured by a man, it was someone I had met only once before. Worse, it was someone with a badge and a gun in my house in the middle of the night without a warrant accompanied by a lot of similar men.
Knowing how to fight would have done me no good at all. Knowing how to flee, taking those who depend on me with me, is what helped.
Had I fought back in any meaningful way, I think I would have come away a lot worse than I did physically (and legally).